Hiring developers in Los Angeles
What the published data says about the Los Angeles-Long Beach-Anaheim, CA technical labour market, and what it means when you are deciding whether to hire here, hire elsewhere, or build the team differently.
The local market in numbers
The Bureau of Labor Statistics counts 55,540 software developers employed in the Los Angeles-Long Beach-Anaheim, CA metropolitan area, at a median annual wage of $160,920. The national median for the same occupation is $135,980, which puts Los Angeles about 18% above the country as a whole. Among the 377 US metropolitan areas where this occupation is separately published, Los Angeles ranks 10 by median wage.
Those two numbers answer different questions and are often confused. The wage figure tells you what a seat costs. The employment figure tells you how likely you are to fill it. A market can be expensive and deep, expensive and thin, cheap and deep, or cheap and thin, and the hiring strategy that follows is different in each case. Reading only the wage column is the most common way a hiring plan goes wrong before it starts.
What the wage distribution shows
In Los Angeles the 10th percentile sits at $98,270 and the 90th at $223,150, a spread of about 2.3 times. The middle half of the market, between the 25th and 75th percentiles, runs from $127,530 to $191,540. That band is the number worth carrying into a budget conversation, because it describes where most actual offers land rather than where the single midpoint sits.
That spread is narrower than the national spread of about 2.6 times. A wide local spread usually means the metro contains several different markets under one label: a well-paid cluster attached to a few large employers, and a much broader base of internal IT and agency work that is priced quite differently. When you benchmark against a local median without knowing which of those clusters your role sits in, the benchmark is close to meaningless.
One more caution on reading these figures. They are wages paid by employers to people on a payroll in this metro area. They are not contractor rates, they do not include equity, bonus or benefits, and they say nothing about what the same work costs when it is done by a team somewhere else. They are the right baseline for the question “what would this cost if we hired locally” and the wrong baseline for almost every other question.
Pay across every technical occupation
Software development is one of several technical occupations the Bureau publishes for this metro. The full set is worth reading because roles compete for the same people: a strong back-end developer in Los Angeles can be recruited into a data or security title, and the pay in those adjacent columns is part of what you are bidding against.
| Occupation | Employed | 25th percentile | Median | 75th percentile | 90th percentile |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Software Developers | 55,540 | $127,530 | $160,920 | $191,540 | $223,150 |
| Web Developers | 2,310 | $82,170 | $107,290 | $146,850 | $166,990 |
| Web and Digital Interface Designers | 9,220 | $78,830 | $106,550 | $168,500 | $201,320 |
| Computer Programmers | 3,400 | $82,770 | $107,090 | $132,600 | $160,460 |
| Software QA Analysts and Testers | 7,200 | $83,360 | $122,210 | $150,020 | $170,880 |
| Data Scientists | 9,850 | $91,350 | $129,740 | $168,420 | $208,280 |
| Information Security Analysts | 4,820 | $94,830 | $129,630 | $166,780 | $195,820 |
| Computer Systems Analysts | 16,900 | $100,960 | $121,560 | $140,460 | $165,620 |
| Database Architects | 1,530 | $119,140 | $155,740 | $178,140 | $206,690 |
| Database Administrators | 2,280 | $83,340 | $112,540 | $154,670 | $168,050 |
| Computer Network Architects | 3,500 | $121,020 | $147,510 | $174,410 | $212,130 |
| Network and Computer Systems Administrators | 8,770 | $86,170 | $106,290 | $131,290 | $159,750 |
| Computer and Information Systems Managers | 23,180 | $163,820 | $204,370 | $242,970 | $297,260 |
| Computer Occupations, All Other | 20,060 | $72,340 | $109,700 | $163,210 | $203,490 |
Blank cells are where the Bureau does not publish an estimate for this metro, usually because the sample is too small to release.
Every one of these occupations is separately published for this metro, which is itself a signal: the Bureau suppresses estimates where the sample is too small, so a complete set indicates a technical labour market with real depth across specialisms rather than a single dominant employer.
Reading each technical occupation in Los Angeles
The table above is a summary. Each row behind it describes a different hiring problem, and the gap between the local and the national figure is rarely the same from one row to the next. Where a metro is expensive in one occupation and ordinary in another, that difference is usually the clearest signal available about which employers are actually competing for people here.
Software Developers
The Bureau counts 55,540 people in this occupation in the Los Angeles-Long Beach-Anaheim, CA area, at a median of $160,920 against a national median of $135,980, which is about 18% above the national figure. The middle half of the local market runs from $127,530 to $191,540. A location quotient of 0.82 means the work is less concentrated here than the size of the local economy would predict, so a local-only search in this specialism will be the slow part of the plan. The local band runs from $98,270 at the 10th percentile to $223,150 at the 90th, so the title alone sets the budget only very loosely.
Web Developers
The Bureau counts 2,310 people in this occupation in the Los Angeles-Long Beach-Anaheim, CA area, at a median of $107,290 against a national median of $92,650, which is about 16% above the national figure. The middle half of the local market runs from $82,170 to $146,850. A location quotient of 0.82 means the work is less concentrated here than the size of the local economy would predict, so a local-only search in this specialism will be the slow part of the plan. The local band runs from $55,670 at the 10th percentile to $166,990 at the 90th, so the title alone sets the budget only very loosely.
Web and Digital Interface Designers
The Bureau counts 9,220 people in this occupation in the Los Angeles-Long Beach-Anaheim, CA area, at a median of $106,550 against a national median of $104,000, which is about 2% above the national figure. The middle half of the local market runs from $78,830 to $168,500. A location quotient of 2.02 means the work is considerably more concentrated here than the size of the local economy would predict, so sourcing should be straightforward and closing will be the harder half. The local band runs from $58,100 at the 10th percentile to $201,320 at the 90th, so the title alone sets the budget only very loosely.
Computer Programmers
The Bureau counts 3,400 people in this occupation in the Los Angeles-Long Beach-Anaheim, CA area, at a median of $107,090 against a national median of $100,390, which is about 7% above the national figure. The middle half of the local market runs from $82,770 to $132,600. A location quotient of 0.91 means the work is about as concentrated here than the size of the local economy would predict, so a local-only search in this specialism will be the slow part of the plan. The local band runs from $61,700 at the 10th percentile to $160,460 at the 90th, so the title alone sets the budget only very loosely.
Software QA Analysts and Testers
The Bureau counts 7,200 people in this occupation in the Los Angeles-Long Beach-Anaheim, CA area, at a median of $122,210 against a national median of $104,300, which is about 17% above the national figure. The middle half of the local market runs from $83,360 to $150,020. A location quotient of 0.96 means the work is about as concentrated here than the size of the local economy would predict, so a local-only search in this specialism will be the slow part of the plan. The local band runs from $60,660 at the 10th percentile to $170,880 at the 90th, so the title alone sets the budget only very loosely.
Data Scientists
The Bureau counts 9,850 people in this occupation in the Los Angeles-Long Beach-Anaheim, CA area, at a median of $129,740 against a national median of $120,230, which is about 8% above the national figure. The middle half of the local market runs from $91,350 to $168,420. A location quotient of 0.93 means the work is about as concentrated here than the size of the local economy would predict, so a local-only search in this specialism will be the slow part of the plan. The local band runs from $71,080 at the 10th percentile to $208,280 at the 90th, so the title alone sets the budget only very loosely.
Information Security Analysts
The Bureau counts 4,820 people in this occupation in the Los Angeles-Long Beach-Anaheim, CA area, at a median of $129,630 against a national median of $129,180, which is within a percentage point of the national figure. The middle half of the local market runs from $94,830 to $166,780. A location quotient of 0.63 means the work is less concentrated here than the size of the local economy would predict, so a local-only search in this specialism will be the slow part of the plan. The local band runs from $54,230 at the 10th percentile to $195,820 at the 90th, so the title alone sets the budget only very loosely.
Computer Systems Analysts
The Bureau counts 16,900 people in this occupation in the Los Angeles-Long Beach-Anaheim, CA area, at a median of $121,560 against a national median of $105,850, which is about 15% above the national figure. The middle half of the local market runs from $100,960 to $140,460. A location quotient of 0.81 means the work is less concentrated here than the size of the local economy would predict, so a local-only search in this specialism will be the slow part of the plan. The local band runs from $76,430 at the 10th percentile to $165,620 at the 90th, so the title alone sets the budget only very loosely.
Database Architects
The Bureau counts 1,530 people in this occupation in the Los Angeles-Long Beach-Anaheim, CA area, at a median of $155,740 against a national median of $139,500, which is about 12% above the national figure. The middle half of the local market runs from $119,140 to $178,140. A location quotient of 0.57 means the work is less concentrated here than the size of the local economy would predict, so a local-only search in this specialism will be the slow part of the plan. The local band runs from $79,890 at the 10th percentile to $206,690 at the 90th, so the title alone sets the budget only very loosely.
Database Administrators
The Bureau counts 2,280 people in this occupation in the Los Angeles-Long Beach-Anaheim, CA area, at a median of $112,540 against a national median of $104,620, which is about 8% above the national figure. The middle half of the local market runs from $83,340 to $154,670. A location quotient of 0.81 means the work is less concentrated here than the size of the local economy would predict, so a local-only search in this specialism will be the slow part of the plan. The local band runs from $60,900 at the 10th percentile to $168,050 at the 90th, so the title alone sets the budget only very loosely.
Computer Network Architects
The Bureau counts 3,500 people in this occupation in the Los Angeles-Long Beach-Anaheim, CA area, at a median of $147,510 against a national median of $134,050, which is about 10% above the national figure. The middle half of the local market runs from $121,020 to $174,410. A location quotient of 0.48 means the work is less concentrated here than the size of the local economy would predict, so a local-only search in this specialism will be the slow part of the plan. The local band runs from $90,880 at the 10th percentile to $212,130 at the 90th, so the title alone sets the budget only very loosely.
Network and Computer Systems Administrators
The Bureau counts 8,770 people in this occupation in the Los Angeles-Long Beach-Anaheim, CA area, at a median of $106,290 against a national median of $99,130, which is about 7% above the national figure. The middle half of the local market runs from $86,170 to $131,290. A location quotient of 0.69 means the work is less concentrated here than the size of the local economy would predict, so a local-only search in this specialism will be the slow part of the plan. The local band runs from $70,870 at the 10th percentile to $159,750 at the 90th, so the title alone sets the budget only very loosely.
Computer and Information Systems Managers
The Bureau counts 23,180 people in this occupation in the Los Angeles-Long Beach-Anaheim, CA area, at a median of $204,370 against a national median of $175,140, which is about 17% above the national figure. The middle half of the local market runs from $163,820 to $242,970. A location quotient of 0.86 means the work is less concentrated here than the size of the local economy would predict, so a local-only search in this specialism will be the slow part of the plan. The local band runs from $125,600 at the 10th percentile to $297,260 at the 90th, so the title alone sets the budget only very loosely.
Computer Occupations, All Other
The Bureau counts 20,060 people in this occupation in the Los Angeles-Long Beach-Anaheim, CA area, at a median of $109,700 against a national median of $116,580, which is about 6% below the national figure. The middle half of the local market runs from $72,340 to $163,210. A location quotient of 1.14 means the work is about as concentrated here than the size of the local economy would predict, so a local-only search in this specialism will be the slow part of the plan. The local band runs from $49,720 at the 10th percentile to $203,490 at the 90th, so the title alone sets the budget only very loosely.
How concentrated the work is
The location quotient for software developers in Los Angeles is 0.82. The measure compares the share of local employment in an occupation against the national share, so 1.00 means exactly what the size of the local economy would predict. At 0.82, this market has less of this work than its size would suggest.
In a market at this concentration the binding constraint is usually supply rather than competition. There are fewer people to find, and a search that insists on local presence will take longer than the same search in a concentrated market, even though the offers themselves are easier to close. Widening the geography early is generally cheaper than extending the timeline later.
Expressed another way, there are about 8.9 software developers for every 1,000 jobs of any kind in this metro. That density figure is the one to quote when someone asks whether the local market can absorb a team of five or a team of fifty, because it scales with the size of the economy rather than against a national average.
What a local seat actually costs
A salary figure is not a budget. The number that belongs in a plan is the employer-side cost of keeping one person in one seat for a year, and it is reliably higher than the wage line that gets quoted. The arithmetic below uses the published software developers median for Los Angeles and the statutory 2026 employer rates, so every figure in it can be checked.
| Wage point | Annual wage | Employer OASDI and Medicare | Wage plus these taxes | Added |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| 25th percentile | $127,530 | $9,756 | $137,286 | 7.6% |
| Median | $160,920 | $12,310 | $173,230 | 7.6% |
| 75th percentile | $191,540 | $14,216 | $205,756 | 7.4% |
Employer share of OASDI at 6.2% up to a wage base of $184,500, plus Medicare at 1.45% with no cap. Source: Social Security Administration, Contribution and Benefit Base, retrieved 2026-09-25.
That is the floor, not the total. On top of it sit federal and state unemployment insurance, workers' compensation, health cover, retirement contributions, equipment, software licences, office cost where there is an office, and the recruitment fee or internal recruiter time that brought the person in. None of those are in the wage figure and all of them are real.
There is one more line that almost never makes it into a comparison, and it is usually the largest. A seat that stays empty for three months has cost you a quarter of the year's output from that role. Whatever the wage, the delivery cost of the vacancy is the same, and in a market where a search genuinely takes that long it dominates the difference between one hiring option and another. When teams tell us a local hire and a remote team came out close on cost, the time to fill is nearly always the variable that was left out.
Working across time zones from Los Angeles
If any part of the team is not in Pacific, the working day is a design decision rather than an accident. Los Angeles runs on Pacific time. The question that matters is not how many hours of difference there are, but how many hours of deliberate overlap the team commits to and what is required to happen inside them.
The pattern that works is a fixed overlap window of two to four hours, published and treated as real. Inside it go the things that cost a day when they are done asynchronously: code review on anything non-trivial, decisions with more than one reasonable answer, and the conversation when somebody is stuck. Outside it goes focused work. Teams that skip the fixed window do not save the meeting time; they pay it back several times over in waiting.
Two practices decide whether this works. The first is writing decisions down where the other half of the team will find them, because a decision made in a corridor in Los Angeles does not exist for anyone who was asleep. The second is that nobody should ever be blocked overnight on a permission, an environment or an access request; those are the failures that turn an eight-hour offset into a lost day, and they are entirely preventable.
How the Los Angeles market has moved
One year of data describes a market. Three years starts to describe a direction. These are the published figures for software developers in the Los Angeles-Long Beach-Anaheim, CA area across the last three releases.
| Reference period | Employed | Median wage | Location quotient |
|---|---|---|---|
| May 2023 | 58,450 | $153,560 | 0.87 |
| May 2024 | 54,650 | $155,330 | 0.82 |
| May 2025 | 55,540 | $160,920 | 0.82 |
Source: BLS Occupational Employment and Wage Statistics, metropolitan area files for May 2023, May 2024 and May 2025.
Over those two years the median wage moved up 5%, from $153,560 to $160,920. Employment moved down 5% over the same period, from 58,450 to 55,540. Pay rising while employment falls usually means the composition of the market is shifting rather than that everyone got a raise: junior and mid-level roles thinning out while senior roles hold. If you are hiring at the experienced end, expect the local band to be firmer than the headline suggests.
One caveat belongs with this table, and it is the Bureau's own. These estimates are produced from overlapping survey panels and the methodology is revised between releases, so they are not designed to be read as a clean time series. A two-point difference between years is noise. A move of the size seen here is worth noting as a direction rather than quoting as a growth rate.
Nearby markets worth comparing
Hiring decisions are rarely made between one city and the rest of the country. They are made between a handful of markets a team is already willing to consider. These are the metros closest to Los Angeles on that basis, with the same figures side by side.
| Metro area | Employed | Median wage | vs Los Angeles | Location quotient |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Los Angeles-Long Beach-Anaheim, CA | 55,540 | $160,920 | — | 0.82 |
| San Diego-Chula Vista-Carlsbad, CA | 20,610 | $163,270 | +1% | 1.23 |
| San Jose-Sunnyvale-Santa Clara, CA | 87,350 | $213,110 | +32% | 7.09 |
| Phoenix-Mesa-Chandler, AZ | 29,380 | $131,750 | -18% | 1.14 |
Percentages compare each metro against Los Angeles, not against the national median.
Differences of a few percent between neighbouring metros are not worth planning around; they fall well inside the error on any single hire. Differences of twenty percent or more are worth planning around, and so is a large gap in employment, because that is the number that decides whether a shortlist exists at all.
The industries that shape hiring here
Wage tables describe the price of labour. They do not describe what the labour has been doing, and that is usually the part that decides whether a candidate fits. The anchors of the Los Angeles economy are entertainment and streaming, aerospace, consumer apps and digital media.
Entertainment and streaming
Developers who have come up through entertainment and streaming in this market tend to arrive with domain knowledge that is genuinely hard to buy, and with working habits formed by that sector's constraints: its release cadence, its tolerance for risk, its review and approval culture, and the compliance obligations it carries. Both halves travel with the candidate. When the sector you are hiring into shares those constraints, that background is worth paying for. When it does not, the adjustment is real and it is worth asking in the interview how they would work differently.
Aerospace
Developers who have come up through aerospace in this market tend to arrive with domain knowledge that is genuinely hard to buy, and with working habits formed by that sector's constraints: its release cadence, its tolerance for risk, its review and approval culture, and the compliance obligations it carries. Both halves travel with the candidate. When the sector you are hiring into shares those constraints, that background is worth paying for. When it does not, the adjustment is real and it is worth asking in the interview how they would work differently.
Consumer apps
Developers who have come up through consumer apps in this market tend to arrive with domain knowledge that is genuinely hard to buy, and with working habits formed by that sector's constraints: its release cadence, its tolerance for risk, its review and approval culture, and the compliance obligations it carries. Both halves travel with the candidate. When the sector you are hiring into shares those constraints, that background is worth paying for. When it does not, the adjustment is real and it is worth asking in the interview how they would work differently.
Digital media
Developers who have come up through digital media in this market tend to arrive with domain knowledge that is genuinely hard to buy, and with working habits formed by that sector's constraints: its release cadence, its tolerance for risk, its review and approval culture, and the compliance obligations it carries. Both halves travel with the candidate. When the sector you are hiring into shares those constraints, that background is worth paying for. When it does not, the adjustment is real and it is worth asking in the interview how they would work differently.
The same concentration explains where the competition for a candidate comes from. In a market anchored by a small number of large employers in one sector, you are usually bidding against those employers directly, and against their compensation structure rather than against another startup.
Where the talent comes from
The main academic feeders into this market are UCLA, USC, Caltech and Cal State Long Beach. Pipelines matter most for junior hiring: graduate intake is where a local university genuinely changes the supply you can reach. At senior level, people are recruited out of other companies rather than out of programmes, and the relevant pipeline is the set of local employers large enough to have trained them.
This is worth being blunt about when a hiring plan leans on a university reputation. A strong local computer science department improves your odds of finding good juniors and has almost no effect on your odds of finding a senior engineer who has already run the kind of system you are building. Those are two different searches with two different sources, and conflating them is a common reason a plan that looked reasonable produces nobody.
Where hiring plans go wrong in this market
These are the failures we see most often in Los Angeles specifically. They are not generic hiring advice; each one follows from something in the figures above.
Benchmarking against a national median
Local pay for this occupation runs about 18% above the national figure. A band built from national data will sit below the local 25th percentile, which does not produce hard negotiations, it produces silence. Candidates at this level read an under-market offer as a signal about the company and stop replying.
Insisting on local presence in a thin market
At this concentration the pool is the constraint, and no amount of process improvement creates people who are not there. Teams that hold a local-only requirement for a specialist role here routinely spend two quarters on a search that a wider geography would have closed in six weeks.
Writing the brief around a technology instead of a problem
A specification that lists ten technologies and no description of the system filters for people who match keywords rather than people who can do the work. It is also the main reason shortlists in this market get rejected late, because the mismatch only becomes visible in a technical conversation.
Costing the seat and not the vacancy
The loaded-cost table above is the easy half. The expensive half is the months the role is open, and that cost is identical whichever option you eventually choose. Any comparison between hiring locally and building the team another way that leaves out time to fill has already reached the wrong answer.
Treating one metro as one market
The wage spread here is wide enough that Los Angeles contains several distinct markets under a single label. Benchmarking a role against the metro median without knowing which of those clusters it belongs to gives a number that is precise and wrong.
What this means in practice
Pulling the figures above together, these are the practical consequences for a team hiring into Los Angeles.
- Widen the geography before you extend the timeline. In a market at this concentration, the constraint is how many people are there, and no amount of process improvement changes that number.
- Treat a suppressed or small occupation estimate as a warning that a specialist search will not resolve locally on any reasonable schedule.
- Benchmark against the local band rather than the national median. An offer built from national figures will be uncompetitive here by a margin large enough that strong candidates will not counter, they will simply stop replying.
- Separate the two questions. Decide what the work genuinely requires to be done in this time zone or in this building, and treat everything else as a search that does not have to be local at all.
Hiring by technology in Los Angeles
Published pay and market conditions for Los Angeles-Long Beach-Anaheim, CA, read against the specific technology you are hiring for.
- Machine Learning developers in Los Angeles
- AI Engineering developers in Los Angeles
- Node.js developers in Los Angeles
- Python developers in Los Angeles
- Java developers in Los Angeles
- .NET developers in Los Angeles
- PHP developers in Los Angeles
- Laravel developers in Los Angeles
- Django developers in Los Angeles
- Go developers in Los Angeles
- Spring Boot developers in Los Angeles
- Microsoft Azure developers in Los Angeles
- Rust developers in Los Angeles
- Ruby on Rails developers in Los Angeles
- WordPress developers in Los Angeles
- Shopify developers in Los Angeles
- JavaScript developers in Los Angeles
- GraphQL developers in Los Angeles
- SQL developers in Los Angeles
- Data Engineering developers in Los Angeles
- Data Science developers in Los Angeles
- MySQL developers in Los Angeles
- WooCommerce developers in Los Angeles
- Magento and Adobe Commerce developers in Los Angeles
- Drupal developers in Los Angeles
- QA Automation developers in Los Angeles
- Salesforce developers in Los Angeles
- React developers in Los Angeles
- Next.js developers in Los Angeles
- TypeScript developers in Los Angeles
- Angular developers in Los Angeles
- Vue.js developers in Los Angeles
- React Native developers in Los Angeles
- Flutter developers in Los Angeles
- iOS and Swift developers in Los Angeles
- Android and Kotlin developers in Los Angeles
- AWS developers in Los Angeles
- DevOps developers in Los Angeles
- Kubernetes developers in Los Angeles
- Terraform developers in Los Angeles
Frequently asked questions
What does a software developer cost in Los Angeles?
The Bureau of Labor Statistics puts the median annual wage for software developers in the Los Angeles-Long Beach-Anaheim, CA metropolitan area at $160,920, which is about 18% above the national median of $135,980. The middle half of the local market sits between $127,530 and $191,540. Those are wages only: employer taxes, benefits, equipment and recruitment cost sit on top, and a vacant seat costs the delivery schedule rather than the payroll line.
How large is the Los Angeles developer market?
The Bureau counts 55,540 software developers employed in the Los Angeles-Long Beach-Anaheim, CA metropolitan area. Employment counts matter more than wage figures when you are estimating how long a search will take, because a high median in a thin market usually means a long search rather than an expensive one.
Is software development concentrated in Los Angeles?
The location quotient for software developers in this metro is 0.82. A value above 1 means the occupation is more concentrated here than in the country as a whole. At 0.82, Los Angeles the occupation is less concentrated here than nationally. The practical consequence is that local supply is thinner than the headline employment number suggests, and widening the search is usually faster than waiting.
Should we hire locally in Los Angeles or work with a remote team?
It depends on what the work needs rather than on cost alone. Work that requires being in a room with regulated data, physical hardware or a specific client site has to be local. Most product engineering does not. The honest comparison is not a local salary against an hourly rate, but the fully loaded cost of a local seat, including the months it stands empty, against the cost and the coordination overhead of a team in another time zone.
How does the Los Angeles time zone affect working with a distributed team?
Los Angeles runs on Pacific. The workable pattern for most teams is a committed overlap window rather than full-day coverage: two to four hours when everyone is online for review, decisions and anything that would otherwise take a day of messages. Teams that try to run without a fixed overlap lose more to waiting than they ever save on rate.
Which industries drive technical hiring in Los Angeles?
The local anchors are entertainment and streaming, aerospace, consumer apps and digital media. That mix matters when you read a CV: a developer whose experience comes from the dominant local industry brings domain knowledge you may value, and habits formed in that industry that may not fit a different kind of product.
Where does the local talent pipeline come from?
The main feeders are UCLA, USC, Caltech and Cal State Long Beach. University pipelines matter most for junior hiring and least for senior hiring, where people are recruited out of other companies rather than out of programmes.